Comments on: Circumcision: the human rights violation that no one wants to talk about https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight The magazine of freethought, open enquiry and irreverence Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:15:02 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Stephen Moreton https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-158 Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:15:02 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-158 In reply to Howard Smith.

Monotremes don’t, so you’ve got that wrong. Most non-primate mammals have a penile sheath which is analogous to a foreskin but not exactly the same thing. You also wrong to suggest that nature doesn’t make mistakes. The recurrent laryngeal nerve? Retinal nerves the wrong way around? Eyes for blind cave animals? Millions of years of evolution failed to fix those blunders. Your logic is also fallacious – look up “appeal to nature fallacy”.
As medical circumcision confers a lifetime of health benefits, reducing morbidity and mortality, and the risk:benefit ratio is optimal in infancy, it could be argued (and is by some) that it would actually be unethical to deny the procedure to infants when the parents wish it.

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By: Howard Smith https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-155 Thu, 20 Apr 2023 22:17:45 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-155 Every mammal on the planet has a prepuce. Males have foreskins and females have clitoral hoods. Do the pro-circ crowd really believe that nature made a mistake with human males? This is millions of years of evolution we are talking about. It seems very arrogant to me that some humans think they know better.

No-one has the right to alter another human’s body without their consent, barring a life threatening situation. So, yes, the circumcision of children is a human rights violation.

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By: Stephen Moreton https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-151 Mon, 03 Apr 2023 19:19:40 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-151 In reply to Michael Glass.

Your arguments about life expectancy and infant mortality are asinine. These things have far more to do with how developed the country is, than whether the men have foreskins or not.

The Sydney Children’s Hospital statement is misleading, out-of-date, and unsupported. Where do they get their figure of 20 complications from? This contradicts the largest study so far in a developed world setting (USA) of 1.4 million infant circumcisions which found a complication rate of 0.4%, mostly trivial things easily remedied: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24820907/ So that would be 4 trivial complications, not 20.

I’d also question their figure of 8 infant UTIs averted. There are even lower NNTs cited in the literature, and the statement “there is no difference in older boys” is just false. The protection is lifelong: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23201382/

Also false is the assertion that: “With normal personal hygiene, the circumcised penis is no cleaner than the uncircumcised penis” as studies have shown the biome of the penis changes after circumcision with fewer harmful anaerobes and fungi: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36557565/

I note the same Sydney document makes the misleading claim “Penile cancer is very rare, with an incidence of 1 in 250,000 men in Australia”. That is a very rough per annum figure. The lifetime risk is around 1 in 1000, plus or minus a few hundred.

In any case, the argument for infant circumcision is not based on one benefit in isolation (e.g. UTIs) but on all of them combined. As well as averting >8 infant UTIs, those 1000 circumcisions would also avert scores more over the lifetimes of the males, plus many cases of phimosis, lichen sclerosus, balantitis, viral and ulcerative STDs, and one case of penile cancer and a couple of prostate cancer, which is anything but rare. In short, the benefits comfortably exceed the risks.

The Sydney statement is based on the RACP’s, which has been shown by other Aussies, to be not evidence-based: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22805686/ which perhaps explains why it is so bad.

I’d rather rely on scientific studies in peer-reviewed journals than dated, secondary sources that make misleading, even false, claims, and do not provide their sources to allow for fact-checking.

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By: Michael Glass https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-150 Wed, 29 Mar 2023 23:53:15 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-150 Some believe that circumcision is a GOOD THING, others believe it’s a BAD THING. That debate has been going on for thousands of years. Instead of arguing, let’s look at some facts.

Worldometer lists male life expectancy by country. The first five are Switzerland, Hong Kong, Iceland, Australia and Singapore. The sixth is Israel. Israel clearly does well, but the non-circumcising countries of Switzerland, Hong Kong and Iceland do even better. See https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/

What about infant mortality? Overall infant mortaility is lowest in a brace of European countries and Japan at 2 per thousand. Israel comes in the next brace of countries with 3 per thousand. Once again, Israel does well, but other countries do better. See https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/infant_mortality/

These figures do not support the contention that infant circumcision confers any benefit to life expectancy.

The Sydney Children’s Hospital says this about hygiene:
https://www.schn.health.nsw.gov.au/files/factsheets/male_infant_circumcision-en.pdf

Hygiene
With normal personal hygiene, the circumcised penis is no cleaner than the uncircumcised penis.

It says this about urinary tract infections:

“Some research in North America has shown that boys, who were circumcised as small babies, have less chance of developing urinary tract infections in the first year of life,than those who are uncircumcised (there is no difference in older boys). However, the numbers of uncircumcised boys who will get urinary infections is small. If 1000 well boys are circumcised, 8 infections will be prevented, but 20 will have a complication related to the circumcision. In those boys with an underlying urinary tract problem, circumcision has been shown to reduce the risk of recurrent urinary tract infections, particularly if still in nappies.”

I’d rather rely on this information than alarmist opinions about the supposed danger of feral foreskins from people with an axe to grind.

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By: Stephen Moreton https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-148 Wed, 29 Mar 2023 19:26:58 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-148 In reply to Michael White.

If only it was so simple. But as a scientist I cannot deny the compelling evidence that the procedure has wide-ranging benefits that outweigh the risks, and the balance is optimal in infancy when the recipient cannot give consent, so then the parents have to give consent on his behalf. If it was not for this I would be joining Sanchez (but without the pseudoscience) in saying that it should only be done at an age of consent, or when forced by medical necessity.

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By: Michael White https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-147 Tue, 28 Mar 2023 22:49:43 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-147 It seems to me that this question simply turns on the relative risks and morality of carrying out these procedures immediately without permission, or waiting until informed and voluntary consent can be given by the person involved.
Michael
(‘Entire’ly happy)

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By: Stephen Moreton https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-139 Fri, 17 Mar 2023 19:36:59 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-139 “Only if the surgery is necessary.” Usually I would agree, but male circumcision (MC) does confer net benefits, especially when performed in infancy. It could be argued (as some do) that given this fact it is actually unethical to deny males the intervention at the best time. I don’t think there is any other surgical procedure to which this applies, so MC is arguably an exception.
“Why does the idea of someone having this procedure bother you so much?” It doesn’t bother me at all. What does bother me is pseudoscience and misinformation, and Sanchez’s article is full of it. Do you really believe his claim there are 20,000 nerve endings, “erotogenic” or otherwise on the foreskin? Seriously?
“Is it because most wouldn’t be up for it if given the choice?” 30 million African males have chosen it since 2008 as part of the WHO-backed program against HIV. I did a systematic review of the literature and found 42 studies showing that the more men know about MC the more positive they are about it, often to the point of wishing to become circumcised if not so already. The only study finding the contrary was by anti-circumcision activists (“intactivists”) led by Brian Earp (with whom Sanchez is linked): https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=99559
“You seem obsessed with pushing this practice despite having no credentials whatsoever.” I don’t push MC, I debunk anti-MC pseudoscience, and point to what the science actually says. As for credentials, at least I am a scientist. Most intactivists are not, and very few are relevantly qualified: http://circfacts.org/meet-the-intactivists/ What are your credentials?
“Why is a mineral chemist lording over a comments section viscously attacking anyone that comments positively to Sanchez’s article?” I was unaware that my comments have rheological properties. I assume you mean “viciously”, but I am merely saying it as it is. As for why, I don’t have to justify defending truth and exposing falsehood. It is Sanchez, and those who fall for his nonsense, who should justify peddling misinformation in the first place. But if you must know, having followed this debate for decades I have come to realise that intactivism is a nasty, pernicious, pseudoscientific cult that causes needless distress to circumcised males, whilst undermining a vitally important weapon in the fight against HIV.
“I’m sorry but many in the medical community are still debating this topic” That MC is vital in high-HIV settings is no longer debated, it is consensus. A few deniers like Sanchez notwithstanding. Outside of those setting indeed there is debate, but it is marred by misinformation and pseudoscience such as the rubbish Sanchez uncritically copies from unreliable Internet sources.
“You use the phrase “the science” the same way a creationist preacher uses the words “the bible”” Perhaps I regard “the science” as more reliable than the fringe sources Sanchez cites. Like Doctors Opposing Circumcision (DOC) – a fringe group that refuses to reveal how many members it has, and how many are actually doctors. Some of its board members are not, including its vice-president George Hill, a retired airline pilot. DOC has been exposed as a sham organisation: https://www.circumcisionchoice.com/single-post/__doc and http://circfacts.org/debunking-corner/#debk9 One of the hallmarks of pseudoscientists is their use of fringe, unreliable sources.
“Why continue to dogmatically push your cherry picked studies and statistics?” Prove that the studies and stats I cite are “cherry-picked”. I give preference to the best quality peer-reviewed science I can find, based on the hierarchy of evidence: http://circfacts.org/blog/#blog1 Few of the studies intactivists cite get past cross-sectional. I have case-control, cohort, RCTs, systematic reviews and meta-analyses on my side! I win.

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By: Blake https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-138 Fri, 17 Mar 2023 03:49:02 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-138 In reply to Stephen Moreton.

Only if the surgery is necessary. Surgery should only be performed when needed and other effective, non invasive means have failed. Why does the idea of someone having this procedure bother you so much? Is it because most wouldn’t be up for it if given the choice? Even in your own home country your arguments are considered fringed. You seem obsessed with pushing this practice despite having no credentials whatsoever. Why is a mineral chemist lording over a comments section viscously attacking anyone that comments positively to Sanchez’s article? The science says? I’m sorry but many in the medical community are still debating this topic and with good reason. You use the phrase “the science” the same way a creationist preacher uses the words “the bible”. Why continue to dogmatically push your cherry picked studies and statistics?

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By: Stephen Moreton https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-137 Tue, 14 Mar 2023 18:57:09 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-137 In reply to James.

Even if doing so may one day save their lives? Or at least save them from debilitating medical conditions? One cannot escape the fact that medical male circumcision protects, to varying degrees, from a wide range of conditions, some life-threatening, and some common. And it does so with no adverse effect on sexual function, pleasure or satisfaction. And, like it or not, from the medical, practical and cost perspectives, infancy is the best time for it. That is just what the science says, and no amount of pseudoscience from the unreliable Internet sources Sanchez uncritically copies from will change that

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By: James https://freethinker.co.uk/2023/03/circumcision-the-human-rights-violation-hiding-in-plain-sight/#comment-136 Tue, 14 Mar 2023 16:39:13 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8367#comment-136 Dr. Sanchez, thank you for writing this.

Healthy children, whatever their sex or gender, should be free from having the most intimate, private parts of their bodies irreversibly altered.

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