Comments on: ‘A godless neo-religion’ – interview with Helen Joyce on the trans debate https://freethinker.co.uk/2022/11/a-godless-neo-religion-interview-with-helen-joyce-on-trans-ideology-and-its-harms/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=a-godless-neo-religion-interview-with-helen-joyce-on-trans-ideology-and-its-harms The magazine of freethought, open enquiry and irreverence Thu, 22 Feb 2024 14:58:27 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Ellie K https://freethinker.co.uk/2022/11/a-godless-neo-religion-interview-with-helen-joyce-on-trans-ideology-and-its-harms/#comment-186 Wed, 17 May 2023 11:00:20 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=7211#comment-186 In reply to Dr Charlie Lynch.

Dr. Lynch, you asked whether there was any longer a need for the concept of free thought. Your inquiry is motivated by the inclusion of gender critical views here, in a space dedicated to free thought. Yes, gender critical views are sometimes (often?) part of a traditional belief system. I wouldn’t characterize either as being inherently alt-right: There are many Muslims and Jews who are gender critical so to speak, but are by no means alt-right.

You raised an interesting point:

“My view is that it [freethought] made sense as a concept in the past when atheists, secularists and humanists struggled against religious oppression to assert their belief in a world without the supernatural.”

Yet now that most humanists, atheists and secularists have been raised without religion, and live as adults without the confines and restrictions that usually accompany organized religion, you question if there is any justification for a dedicated freethought movement.

I find this interesting because it suggests that you feel the battle has been won, i.e. secularists, humanists, and atheists are no longer oppressed as they were in the past. Given that, why should freethinking, especially if it is critical of gender affirmation, be tolerated? I live in the U.S.; we have our 1st Amendment. I perceive the byline of this publication as essentially the same: “Culturally liberal, politically unaligned”. To me, that means that non-secular, non-atheist expression is also protected by the liberal ideology of freethought. The same is true for gender critical views, whatever their motivation may be. There aren’t restrictions on what freethought is the correct sort. Society informs ethical (if not strictly legal) guidelines for what is outside the pale, e.g. neo-Nazism. Acknowledgement of the immutability of human sexual dimorphism is NOT outside the pale, nor does it exclude lesbian and gay sexuality and culture.

I believe that we still need freethinking, as much as ever.

]]>
By: Dr Charlie Lynch https://freethinker.co.uk/2022/11/a-godless-neo-religion-interview-with-helen-joyce-on-trans-ideology-and-its-harms/#comment-182 Sun, 07 May 2023 19:52:32 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=7211#comment-182 The more that I think about this interview, the more I am disturbed by it. There is at present a large-scale moral panic being pushed by the political and religious right, ably assisted by ‘gender critical feminists.’ It interests me how supposed secular liberals are now singing from the same hymn sheet as the conservative religious. My view is that the ‘gender critical’ movement is an attack on the very right of trans people to exist and to live authentic lives. To argue that trans people cannot change gender and should be regarded in terms of their biological sex at birth is contrary to their human rights, discriminatory and oppressive. Furthermore, Ms. Joyce seems to believe that trans people are victims of manipulation by mass media or simply delusional dupes of “gender ideology” which she presents as some kind of crazed international conspiracy akin to a religious cult which has recently emerged. However, as Nathan says, history shows that trans people have always existed – although the language used to describe them has changed dramatically. It is not surprising, however, that more trans people have emerged as more knowledge and greater recognition of their condition now exists. Finally, the inclusion of the ‘gender critical’ movement in a journal dedicated to freethought raises questions about what freethought is. My view is that it made sense as a concept in the past when atheists, secularists and humanists struggled against religious oppression to assert their belief in a world without the supernatural. If transphobia might now be acceptable under the umbrella of ‘freethought’, why not other alt-right positions? In a society where most humanists, atheists and secularists have grown up and lived without religion, what can freethought mean?

]]>
By: TGBX https://freethinker.co.uk/2022/11/a-godless-neo-religion-interview-with-helen-joyce-on-trans-ideology-and-its-harms/#comment-84 Tue, 22 Nov 2022 13:40:57 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=7211#comment-84 The fervent, militant belief in the god of the gaps called “The Patriarchy” in Western societies, is likewise a godless neo-religion. The mythological “Pay Gap” (just Google “pay gap debunk” and find dozens of reports, many of them by female economists) is the same as the Creationist “missing link” in evolution. Fantasies like “rape culture” when even the mere hint of impropriety can unperson a man (female on male rape isn’t even called rape, it’s called “forced to penetrate” – which occurs almost as often as male on female (see: CDC 2011 study) – making it something the man does, not something the woman does) belie the actual statistics, just as the statistically verified ineffectiveness of prayer belies the religious devotion to its infallibility. Fables like “primary aggressor theory” require one to deny the reality of a world where hundreds of studies confirm that the majority of IPV is bidirectional (see: Martin Fiebert meta-study) with blinders as thick as the ones required to miss the fact the bible and quran are obvious works of fiction. To perpetuate the lie of women’s vulnerability when statistics say that men are twice as likely to be assaulted by a stranger than women (and women are more likely to receive bystander assistance) requires absolute blind faith.

To declare that male is the default, one would have to be so fanatical as to ignore men being 92% of workplace deaths, 90% of homeless, 75-80% of suicides, “women and children first” still being a rule, “bring back our girls” when Boko Haram kidnapped 300 girls while the 10,000 boys killed or weaponized goes unmentioned, that “equity” programs target male-dominated disciplines while female dominated disciplines are seen as admirable or at least unremarkable and unworthy of comparable programs, the fact that more high school and college graduates are women than men. Oh, and there are few, if any, programs to help with man with any of this, and dozens or hundreds or programs to help women. If “man” is the default, then “woman” is the ideal.

Or you can knock that obvious nonsense off altogether.

Feminists never mention that all of this deranged Intersectional mess originated from feminist theory. It’s literally just applying Patriarchy Theory to *everything*. “White supremacy,” the Woke kind that operates as an invisible “system” without people in white hoods is just the race version of The Patriarchy. “Cisnormativity” and “transphobia” is just the Queer Theory version of The Patriarchy. Feminists started this. What’s most remarkable is that feminists want to “win” the Intersectional wars, not end them. If all of this went away, feminists would go back to pretending to be the most marginalized, most oppressed instead of reflecting on what they started, and what happens when paranoid people see demons around every corner, instead of recognizing what they have, having gratitude for it, and using their privilege to help people who don’t have it, like women (and men) in Iran, Afghanistan and other countries who are *actually* oppressed.

The feminist fight against trans ideology isn’t about women’s rights, it’s about who gets to win, and stand central in the victim wars. There Can Be Only One. Feminists claimed the right to be the eternal victims, but then there was competition. Feminists created this hierarchy in the first place, made victimhood a valuable commodity, and then act surprised when there’s a gold rush to capitalize on it. Trans fanatics have now put women where feminists put men. And feminist narcissism and hypocrisy is okay with the latter, but not the former, even though they’re exactly the same and based on exactly the same deranged “power” theories. And they wonder why so many men would rather cut off their balls than live as the evil, oppressive men, when female privilege is just a scalpel away.

]]>
By: Nathan Alexander https://freethinker.co.uk/2022/11/a-godless-neo-religion-interview-with-helen-joyce-on-trans-ideology-and-its-harms/#comment-83 Sun, 20 Nov 2022 20:20:16 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=7211#comment-83 I think there are a few problems with Helen Joyce’s perspective.

The equation between believing in God and believing one is a particular gender doesn’t quite hold up. The former is about believing in something outside oneself, and is therefore subject to scrutiny. The latter is about something internal. So, in the latter case, one could not believe the person that they are the gender that they say they are. But it is an objective fact that they do feel that way.

In short, it’s pretty clear that trans people do indeed exist. And they’ve existed, it seems, in all times and places, though how society treats them has varied. So this isn’t a phenomenon that has just happened in the past five years or something because of social media. Trans people really do believe they are the gender they say they are, despite overwhelming pressure and danger of doing so. I think their decision needs to be respected and treated with understanding.

The way Helen Joyce portrays trans people in this interview is that they are mistaken, they have been brainwashed, or they have nefarious motives. This doesn’t seem at all like an approach based in empathy and respect. I think one could have respectful conversations about the really difficult issues like how to ensure sports are fair for everyone, or how to ensure sensitive spaces are accessible and safe for everyone, but the approach adopted here doesn’t seem to me like the way to begin these conversations.

]]>
By: Angelo Ventura https://freethinker.co.uk/2022/11/a-godless-neo-religion-interview-with-helen-joyce-on-trans-ideology-and-its-harms/#comment-82 Sat, 19 Nov 2022 06:47:14 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=7211#comment-82 Female is biologically the default human. It takes an hormone when we are still embryos to make us male. Alas, culturally man is the default, an example? Our species is called Homo Sapiens not Woman sapiens.
By the way it’s curious the way women who transition to men spark much less controversy bigotry prejudice and hatred, than men who transition to women.

]]>
By: Angelo Ventura https://freethinker.co.uk/2022/11/a-godless-neo-religion-interview-with-helen-joyce-on-trans-ideology-and-its-harms/#comment-81 Sat, 19 Nov 2022 05:33:41 +0000 https://freethinker.co.uk/?p=7211#comment-81 An article to ponder. Gender identity is a thing and trans people are much more likely to get abused and raped than abusing and raping. However, we shouldn’t extremize issues to the point of madness. Trans women maybe should be considered males in certain contents till they complete transition getting operated, in my opinion.

]]>